Curse

Age · Jul 13, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I am voting on removing the hero limit close to when GW2 is ready to be released.I would say H/H made players play bad it is the reason why most don't bring a res and think it is the Monks jop to do it afterall who has the res in post searing and in Sing Jea and Istani.The henchies Monks.

That is why you see no resses on other bars who have been H/H and want a break to go with it with real players.

Hugh Manatee · Jul 13, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

^the reason I forget to take a res in pve after H&Hing frequently is because with the H&H, I hardly ever die. With Humans, pugs, ect, I die, I die alot, what does that tell you....

The res sigs on the 2 non monk henchies is enough for emergencies, and the monks clean up after the fight. Otherwise I can just kamikaze if I start taking losses, flag the survivors back, re-spawn and eat candy.

PvE is already sort of a joke, even without ursan, without PvE skills, before heroes, all the way back in prophecies before they implemented "flags", the henchmen were responsible for getting me through about 90% of the game. It's a controlled circumstance, always the same, once you make a strategy to beat it and then execute the strategy, it's "easy". Until they drastically improve the AI of the enemies the game will always easy with the right party. What's interesting is making new parties and strategies, hard to do with only 4 slots to mess with, a PvP oriented guild that mostly despises the monotony of pve, and a community of childish, troglodytes who've welded ursan to their bars.

Before Ursan, the dungeons, and such, there was B/P, Obs tanks, "steel wall" groups, and whatnot. Unless you filled one of the roles in these types of canned groups, good luck getting pugs. This sort of thing repelled me from elite areas and their retarded pug groups. If 1 cog leaves, you're FUBAR, and the ones that stay are a bunch of jackasses.

I don't necessarily want PvE skills on heores, I might not even need the 4 extra heroes if they'd put some sort of ascended henchmen in the "temple" districts, DoA and Urgoz/Deep(like the zaishen in the Tombs of the Primeval Kings). Give me Elite Luxons and Kurziks in Urgoz and Deep that can handle the teleporting puzzles, give me Zaishen henchmen in Temple of Ages, Chantry of Secrets, and Zin Ku Corridor(that couldn't leave the zone, only enter the realms of the gods), and some Elite whisper agents in DoA and I'd be happy, and I'd never have to put up with ursan grinding again.

Quote:

Do you really feel like playing 8 characters at once?

Yes, honestly yes.

Kanyatta · Jul 14, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I am voting on removing the hero limit close to when GW2 is ready to be released.I would say H/H made players play bad it is the reason why most don't bring a res and think it is the Monks jop to do it afterall who has the res in post searing and in Sing Jea and Istani.The henchies Monks.

That is why you see no resses on other bars who have been H/H and want a break to go with it with real players.

I personally have never heard of a person not bringing a rez and saying "It's the monk's job to rez". Seriously, in the time it takes a monk to rez, another person will die from not being healed.

glacialphoenix · Jul 14, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

I personally have never heard of a person not bringing a rez and saying "It's the monk's job to rez". Seriously, in the time it takes a monk to rez, another person will die from not being healed.

As a monk, I can tell you that I have heard that several times over, and headdesked every time I hear that. If I bring a rez, it's the last resort - I don't rez midbattle, because I'm busy healing/protting/whatnot.

I've played with people who have started screaming at me to rez despite me being busy healing the rest of the party, after I pinged the fact that my rez is Rebirth, and therefore a last resort to prevent party wipe in missions. It happens, alongside party not holding aggro, getting the monks killed, and then shuffling their feet and going "er, no rez" when the monks ask.

(Admittedly, nowadays, I don't expect that much from PUGs. It's always nice to meet a good player, but I don't go in expecting people to play wonderfully.)

ManxMann · Jul 14, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

I enjoy playing this game. Granted not nearly as much as I used to, but I still play and I still find many things to do while wandering around on one of the 3 continents.

I like helping new players, but heroes didn't kill the social aspect of this game. All anyone has to do is sit and watch the chat in any town for just a few minutes. Someone will ask a simple question and "BAM" Smart--- answers start flying. Arguments start over the pettiest things. I'm afraid no one can use the anti-social argument against removing the Hero limit.

"Removing the limit will make the game too easy". Uh, nope, I don't believe so. See we all have this thing called "choice". With Loot scaling in place, as severe as it is, taking extra party members when it is not necessary hurts the player. It is only advantageous to take a full party when we absolutely need to. And besides, if I want to beat the game, does it really matter to you how I do it? I could just leach off of some high level group and have them drag me through. I'm sure that has happened at least once in this game's history.

I like my hero necro, I never leave home without him. Why? 'cause there are always at least 4 dead bodies to pull minions from. The henchies are ALWAYS the first to die. We talk about the difference in their AI's. I remember taking Alesia when I first started playing, I felt so sorry for her. How could anyone that brave be that incredibly stupid! Then, I met her twin sister, had the same name, too! You know the one. You probably fought her for the Bison cup. NOW THAT was a WAMMO!!! I thought to myself, wouldn't it be great if my Alesia could fight like that? How easy would it be to boost up the henchie AI? We have been given up to 25 heroes per character, call me greedy, call me unreasonable, but I want to pick my team.

The henchman concept was good in its day. GuildWars came up with a better concept, and only half released it. Its time to put it into full swing. If you choose not to use it, well that's your decision, but don't deny me mine. I want to continue enjoying this game.

And one additional note: I've been to war, there is no reset button in life, Dying is NOT an option. I want all available resources!

Puebert · Jul 14, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I think that 7 heroes should be allowed, (I also think they should be able to use PvE skills, but I'd rather have 7 heroes) because if you want to do a vanquish/mission/quest etc. with people, you GENERALLY won't choose, a PuG, you'll pick your Guildies/Alliance buddies anyway.

Lishy · Jul 14, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

I think that 7 heroes should be allowed, (I also think they should be able to use PvE skills, but I'd rather have 7 heroes) because if you want to do a vanquish/mission/quest etc. with people, you GENERALLY won't choose, a PuG, you'll pick your Guildies/Alliance buddies anyway.

My thoughts exactly.
/signed

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Excellent, care to elaborate and explain how 7 heroes without formations and pve skills are overpowered when compared to normal team consisting of 8 people with pve skills?

Overpowered in comparison to H/H vs Monsters is what I meant. I should have said more powerful, and powerful enough to wipe through PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

6 humans with ursan blessing and 2 humans with seed of life +7 other skills is overpowered. Point?

And I'm 100% for Ursan nerfing. That is overpowered, many things are, and I wish ANet would nerf them so that they are still useable but not overpowered.

7 heroes is not as powerful as 8 players, especially when those players use imbalanced builds such as Ursan team, or Imbagon, etc etc. But, at least those teams support working with other people (which seems to be very hard for most people, especially on the internet), and 7 heroes in comparison to 3 heroes and 4 henchmen are too powerful for PvE.

I see half the people in this thread that are pro 7 heroes argue against Ursan, SF, and the other Imba builds/skills and want balance. Your arguing two different sides people! No wonder ANet won't do anything, not even individuals seem to know what they want.

I'll state right here what I want:
1. 5 heroes (more in Urgoz/Deep)
2. Nerf to imbalanced skills and singular builds (meaning sabway is ok, due to many places being harsh on them *mainly low corpse areas*)
3. Let heroes use PvE-only skills of their faction (so most get none, but Sunspear heroes get sunspear PvE skills, Kurzick/Luxon heroes get their version of those skills, Jora would get "Bear Form" instead of any of the blessings, Ogden would get Dwarven skills, etc. etc.)
4. Buff to the weak skills so they see more, but not a big buff like SF and Ether Renewal got.
5. NOT to be able to solo the game with AI completely (meaning HM and Elite Areas should not be completely soloable, some areas yes (Slavers', SF, Tombs is good enough for Elite Areas, and many EN HM places are a pain, at least to me), and having max heroes (3-11 depending on location) slaughters this. There should be a FEW places where you have to team up for a full team.

Overall, My opinions are for 5 heroes max, excluding Urgoz/Deep where it should be either 7 or 9 heroes. And my view on 7 heroes is that it is more powerful then what PvE needs (and I AM pro-nerfing overpowered skills and builds, so for those who brought up them, I want those nerfed to be moderate skills/builds *and not slaughtered like some skills have been for PvP*).

Although I will say this: IF no limit on heroes is implemented, then add heroes to Factions and Prophecies so that it ends up being 30 heroes, 3 of each profession (and for lore purposes, change 5 heroes' professions and add Devona, Mhenlo, Aiden, Cynn, and Eve as heroes). Seeing how there would not be much need for Heroes if you have just two of the games, just remove them all together and add(and change) 5 heroes (or remove some and add more then 5).

But making it so that there are only 3 per profession would need a lot of side-game stuff changed (especially if adding Devona and co.). So it could also be done to make it 4 per profession, that way only 15 heroes would be needed to be added, 8/7 seems best, maybe just make one hero a Core hero (maybe gained in a new UW/FoW quest).

Of course, that is IF it is made to no limit on heroes is implemented (and I am still against that, although I voted yes because I want the limit raised).

Kanyatta · Jul 14, 2008, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I see half the people in this thread that are pro 7 heroes argue against Ursan, SF, and the other Imba builds/skills and want balance. Your arguing two different sides people! No wonder ANet won't do anything, not even individuals seem to know what they want.

I stopped reading here, because I was too confuzzled to understand what you're trying to say. You gave no reason to how being pro 7 heroes and anti-Ursan is a paradox or something. You just said it.

What if I just said, "Well, obviously, if you're pro PUG, you must like clubbing baby seals! No wonder the Anet and the EPA are different entities, not even individuals seem to know what they want."

Kind of resembles the same thing, so long as you're not going to have a rhyme or reason to say it.

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 14, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I see half the people in this thread that are pro 7 heroes argue against Ursan, SF, and the other Imba builds/skills and want balance. Your arguing two different sides people! No wonder ANet won't do anything, not even individuals seem to know what they want.

We are not arguing two different sides. 7 heroes is not imbalanced and claiming that it is implies that a guild team of 8 players is imbalanced because a guild team of 8 players is more powerful than heroes.

Could you explain a way that 7 heroes is overpowered that also explains why guild teams aren't, despite the fact that a good guild team will usually be smarter and more capable than a hero team?

fireflyry · Jul 14, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

That is why you see no resses on other bars who have been H/H and want a break to go with it with real players.

Rez on PvE bars = Your doing it wrong.

If an 8-man team needs 8 rezzes there is something seriously at fault with the team.I've never seen a need for more than 2 hard rezzes anywhere but thats another thread me thinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Could you explain a way that 7 heroes is overpowered that also explains why guild teams aren't, despite the fact that a good guild team will usually be smarter and more capable than a hero team?

Imo that's pretty easy.

A guild team requires communication, team work, organization, time to set up and 8 people.

A hero team doesn't and allows the player to set up 7 team mates in any way they see fit which usually results in a more powerful synergy between builds.It also takes seconds.

Most guild teams are also far from the most efficient team builds as they usually revolve around the class and builds individual players are currently playing or enjoying at that time as opposed to the perfect 8 player synergy one could attain from 7 heroes.

The current 3 hero set-up is already able to steamroll most of HM.Imagine if you will 7 hero Sabway on steroids with an Imbagon thrown in, assuming PvE skills were also added to heroes.gg.

In saying I'm all for this idea but I find it hard to ignore the obvious result of OP'd team builds surfacing within seconds.

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 14, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Imo that's pretty easy.

A guild team requires communication, team work, organization, time to set up and 8 people.

A hero team doesn't and allows the player to set up 7 team mates in any way they see fit which usually results in a more powerful synergy between builds.It also takes seconds.

So you're saying it's OP because it saves a lot of time. Basically you mean that we should penalize players who need to be ready to play quickly because they might not have hours and hours to play. Guild Wars was meant to emphasize skill over time, and here I see you advocating the opposite.

As far as OP'ed builds go, [Barbed Spear][Spear of Fury][Focused Anger]["For Great Justice!"]["Save Yourselves!"][Anthem of Flame]["There's Nothing to Fear!"][Aggressive Refrain] is already rolling everything in human teams. I tested it and can even macro it and let most of the game play itself for me in the majority of areas, so overpoweredness isn't even relevant for discussion here.

EDIT: Skill tag fixed.

fireflyry · Jul 14, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

So you're saying it's OP because it saves a lot of time. Basically you mean that we should penalize players who need to be ready to play quickly because they might not have hours and hours to play. Guild Wars was meant to emphasize skill over time, and here I see you advocating the opposite.

No offense but I hate it when people read a post, misinterpret it, and then post there misinterpretation as rebuttal.

I'm saying it's OP because you can have perfect build synergy, anytime, all the time.Sure you can get that, and with PvE skills even more so, in guild teams but let's be realistic here.

7 hero team builds would make HM even more of a walk in the park than it already is.

If you can't already see how easily this would be abused in the current PvE meta chances are nothing I say will make any difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

As far as OP'ed builds go, [Barbed Spear][Spear of Fury][Focused Anger]["For Great Justice!"]["Save Yourselves!"][Anthem of Flame]["There's Nothing to Fear!"][Aggressive Refrain] is already rolling everything in human teams.

Comparing a single OP'd build centered around a PvE player only skill really seems to serve no purpose in discussing the changes a 7 hero team mechanic would bring to the game.If your using it as a means of justification for 7 hero teams I really don't see the relevance especially when you bring ["Save Yourselves!"] into the equation.

Again I'm for this idea.

7 heroes would be awesome but if you can't see that it would be exploitable and used to make OP'd team builds theres not much I can say.Denying it does'nt make it untrue, out of context or any less relevant either.

zwei2stein · Jul 14, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Aehm, stop mixing PvE only skill usage on heroes and 7-heroes. First won't and shouldn't happen, ever, second is up to debate.

About abusability:

One major thing that limits abusability is that you have limited amount of primaries you can put to 7H team. No more than 2 paras for example.

Everyone will probably end up running saabway+racway+one random hero (i suspect bha ranger).

Which is what people already can do if they have friend they can bother for 1 second to borrow heroes or if they have second account. They miss that last random hero, but that's not issue (see FoW with H/H thread for numerous examples.)

CoopaTroopa · Jul 14, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

The hero limit being removed is something I would really like to see. I could take or leave letting them use PvE only skills, but honestly I think the community would take it better if the heroes were kept the way they are now (where they can still use near-broken combinations of regular skills). And who knows? Sab/Rac way might well become obsolete when you have 7 heroes to mess with instead of just 3

Jetdoc · Jul 14, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

This one has a poll in it... at least in this one we can clearly see the popular opinion of what's what without 1 vocal jackass claiming to speak for a non-existant majority.

The moderators could simply insert a poll into the original (and much more insightful) thread, instead of allowing ANOTHER thread that goes in circles about the same arguments. I'm really, really tempted to summarize the proper counterpoints to Zahr's OP above, but I already know where the arguments will go (and what this thread will degenerate to).

Oh well, if you guys want to beat your chest on it here again with the occasional person saying "well, 7 heroes is overpowered, and that's the only reason I have" so you can beat down on them, feel free.

romeus petrus · Jul 14, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

/signed

PUGs are usually for those who don't have any better options.

BlackSephir · Jul 14, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Oh well, if you guys want to beat your chest on it here again with the occasional person saying "well, 7 heroes is overpowered, and that's the only reason I have" so you can beat down on them, feel free.

The only reason? lolno

Proff · Jul 14, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

7 Heroes as soon as Nightmare Mode comes out....

rohara · Jul 14, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

yes please! i only play with guildies/friends or h/h so that would be great. can't always find guildies or friends that have time to do what is needed, or have their character where it's needed, or WANT to do what yr doing, etc.

allow 7 heroes, or at least rework the henchmen bars, imo. most of the henchie bars are just epic sad. EotN henchies were a step in the right direction.